Interview Time - Martin Dunford
Robert Savage meets Martin Dunford - Publishing Director and Rough Guide Founder.
As one of the original founders of The Rough Guides - you obviously know the company better than most. Going back to the beginning, what were the guides like it their infancy and what were the most memorable teething problems?
I suppose the thing about Rough Guides, and a part of why it's been a success, is that we never really planned it as a series and we certainly didn't plan it as a business. It started with a group of us in the early eighties who were doing a lot of travelling and in those days there just weren't so many guide books and people didn't travel so much. They certainly didn't travel so independently and quite so routinely. So we couldn't really find the sort of guide that we were after ourselves. They either seemed to be very dry, dull and focused just on sites with no practical information or there just seemed to be lots of practical money saving information - but not much about the places you were visiting. We felt that there was a place for both in the same book.
We were interested in writing, I suppose we fancied ourselves as writers in a way, as well as travellers and felt that a guide book had to be interesting to read and generally most of them weren't. It also needed to give you a flavour of the place and preferably be written by someone who had spent quite a lot of time there. It needed to be pretty contemporary.
I think it's significant that I first met Mark Cunningham back in Greece in 1981 when he was working on the first Rough Guide because it was a really exciting time to be there. It was when they were having elections and it was the first time they'd had democratic elections, since the military government. There was a tremendous amount of excitement and parades and political rallies. You'd have wondered what was going on! Most of the guide books wouldn't have given you any context and that was one of the things we hoped to improve on. We wanted to write about contemporary places - where people lived, rather than places with museums just laid on for tourists.
When and where was it that you knew you wanted to dedicate your career to the world of travel writing?
Not really no – I'm not sure if I've ever done that really! I suppose I'm quite committed now. It became much more like that but the interesting thing is that over time, for me personally, it's gone through lots of different changes. I started as a writer, like my other colleagues who founded the company and then we sort of became commissioning editors – commissioning other people to do books. And I guess we had a sort of innate sense of our formula. We brought other books to fruition, then founded a company and found a publisher. So the job has changed for me quite a lot.
What I quite like about it and what I like about where I am now is that I'm still very much in touch with the books. I don't just sit behind a desk and add up columns and figures all day. I still do some writing and my day job in the company is as a publisher, who is reasonably hands on and involved in commissioning the books, and working with editors and writers. I also help to determine how to books look and how they might change in the future.
Of the books you've researched and written, what is the most prominent anecdote or experience that always comes to the forefront of your mind when you think back over your portfolio?
I suppose it's sort of the seminal business moments, where we ratcheted it up to another level. I think when we did our first deal as an independent company – going to some sort of swanky Solicitor's office in the city and walking away with a big cheque. That always sticks in my mind. I suppose at that time it felt like it was becoming more like a proper job. It felt like something which wasn't just a hobby anymore.
In terms of travel – going to New York for the first time. This was in the very early days when I was still a writer and had no thoughts of being a publisher at all. Going to New York in 1985 – I was in awe of the place. I felt like I was travelling through my own sort of film set. I don't think people feel like that now. Travel is much more sophisticated and maybe people have to go a bit further and be more adventurous to be as – in awe as I was then. But going there in my early twenties, I thought I was in heaven really. It's not at all like it is now and it was extremely expensive. We were literally penniless, getting around New York for months on end – living in the YMCA.
I think since those days, over twenty years or so, travel really has moved on and it's worth remembering that in those days we didn't know people who had travelled so far, quite so often – we didn't know quite so many of them.
The Rough Guides are no-longer based exclusively on travel and the brand has diversified to offer information on everything from Tutankhamun to Phillip Pullman. What inspired the break away from what you're best known for and where do you see this going?
The Rough Guides are no-longer based exclusively on travel and the brand has diversified to offer information on everything from Tutankhamun to Phillip Pullman. What inspired the break away from what you're best known for and where do you see this going.
We were trying to make it fun and really easy to get at the information - from when the next bus is leaving to why did that painter did that painting and put it in that church.
We did a classical music book, which seemed to me to be the epitome of a difficult subject – something which people might like to find out more about, but they felt intimidated.
Our best selling book was one on the internet – which no-one really knew anything about at the time. We still publish that today!
You're a fairly prominent member of The Rough Guides' house band - the New Cross Dolls. What's the story behind this musical venture?
That's just a fun thing – with a bunch of people who work with us, or used to work with us. We once performed at a Christmas party ten years ago – that was actually one of the seminal moments because we took to the stage with no drummer and we'd spent the whole weekend programming a drum machine to play along to the six songs we were doing.
We only do covers and everyone thought we were going to be crap – and we're not great – but people could actually dance along to us. So people were quite pleasantly surprised so we came back and did a few more. We only play about once every three years
And why is it that band appearances are becoming increasingly rare?
Maybe because we've played all of our songs and people have heard them already.
Lonely Planet responded to last summer's go green frenzy with a pretty far fetching survey – documenting how far travellers are willing to compromise when it comes to climate change. Preceding that you had The Rough Guide to Ethical Living and now there's the Rough Guide to Climate Change by Robert Henson. How would you respond to claims that organisations like the Rough Guides and Lonely planet have no place giving advice about going green, because as advocates of travel - their goal is diametrically opposed to saving the planet?
You could say that quite a lot of things that we do in our daily lives are diametrically opposed to saving the planet. For example driving a car and creating rubbish – which we all do.
If everyone stopped travelling that's one thing that would help but a lot of other people would have to do things at the same time. Industry would have to change and the economy in China would have to take another turn.
If everybody stopped travelling or started advocating not travelling, then I think that would be a very bad thing for the world as a whole. Travel brings enormous benefits – in terms of an outward looking focus for individuals and nations. It's greatest benefit is to bring us into contact with other people and understand them.
There's also the benefits that tourism has brought to local economies. To withdraw this overnight would damage a lot of communities who would have no other way of replacing it.
We advocate responsible travel, people limiting the amount of travel and the flights they take if they can. I suppose that we've always believed that there are better ways of getting to places than jumping on a plane. Personally speaking I'd much rather go by train than plane anywhere if it was feasible. It's a question of achieving a balance.
We've always believed in the overall positive contribution that travel has to make, instead of it being an overly negative contribution and I think that also as a guide book publisher – we've always tried to not be preachy about causes
There's been a massive upsurge in the number and popularity of online community websites – dedicated purely to travellers. You're part in this includes the Rough Guide Travel Talk and Community pages. How do you think this online fusion of Blogs, journals and travel chat rooms will shape the future publication of travel writing?
Well I think it's important and that there's a paradox in a way. The internet has changed where people get travel information from and how they plan their travel - over the last five to ten years.
The paradox is that as more and more information is out there, people look to tried and trusted brands, for knowing that information is up to date and trustworthy.
The explosion of travel information I think, will play to our strengths because you might Google a destination – and have tens of thousands of pages. Often there's no way of knowing how out of date something is. So I think for us and Lonely Planet, we can only benefit from that. People will know that our information is independently researched and is continually updated.
The other side of it is the user generated content and I think that's a really positive influence. I see taking on other people's views and experiences of the places that we do and don't write about, as being an increasingly big feature of our site – and of our books as well.
And what are the implications for the published book?
The guide book isn't dead. I don't think the book is dead. The thing about a guide book and the format in general, is that it's a good, portable way or carrying around a lot of information. I think a lot of people will still prefer that – not just the generation who are used to it but also the younger generation who are used to accessing content more digitally.
The future is pretty bright, in that I see the digital world introducing lots of new channels for people to access our content. The challenge for us is to maintain our book publishing program while at the same time responding to all of these new opportunities – and also being able to anticipate what they are.
If you could throw a dinner party and invite five of the most authoritative and well known travellers in history (dead and alive) – who would you have sitting around the table?
Wilfred Thesiger, Freya Stark, D.H. Lawrence, Mr Baedeker (if he ever existed) and Thomas Cook.
When it comes to putting a Rough Guide together, how do you go about finding the right kind of writer to pen it and what are the biggest turn offs in the screening process?
I think that's an interesting question because it's one of our biggest challenges. For a guide book publisher the biggest challenge always remains the same – and that's finding good writers. What we're looking for in a writer is – particularly at Rough Guides where we place quite a premium on good writing – not only the ability to write but also to have something to say about the place. To have a sort of style which is not only of your own – and one that doesn't just imitate a Rough Guide style, but also the ability to adapt that to a Rough Guide. It's got to do all the things that people expect of the Rough Guide brand.
It's got to deliver a lot of practical things. You've got to be able to structure a book as well as being able to write evocatively about the places you're telling people about. You've got to be prepared to collaborate.
We're always looking for travellers who are very curious – who will always go around the next bend in the road to see what's round there – and have a lot of stamina as a result of that – and have no illusions about the romance of being a travel writer. We're looking for people who are obsessed by practical details because however well you write about somewhere – if you get the practical details wrong, someone will put your guide into the bin. All of those things are quite hard to find in one package.
Time Out have their weekly magazines and Lonely Planet have columns in The Observer and TNT Magazine. Is there a Rough Guide equivalent in print or would you say that your up to date, reactive equivalent – is the Channel Five TV series?
Well currently our equivalent is the Channel Five show – which has been coming for about ten years and that's obviously very good for us. But I think we get as much media coverage as Lonely Planet and Time Out. We've had regular columns in the papers – we used to have one in The Independent a few years ago. It sort of goes up and down really. We used to send out a regular newsletter to our mailing list – we actually now send out an E-Newsletter every month.
A question that I ask all of my interviewees is this – what are your top five reads on the road – Rough Guides not included?
- Rebecca West – Black Lamb and Grey Falcon
- Any detective novel by Henri Mankell.
- Any work by Ernest Hemingway.
- The Stories of John Cheever
- Laurie Lee - As I Walked Out One Midsummer Morning
And finally – imagine if you will that you're given the opportunity to write the opening line of our planet's very first communication with an extra-terrestrial race. What words do you relay to form a favourable impression of human beings?
Welcome. Everybody's equally decent despite what we all might say about each other.
- Rob Savage
